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July 11, 2006

A Blow For "Paternity Fraud"

Guys, when you don't contest paternity from the onset, and you take on the role of father, this New York case rightly decided that you had acted in the capacity of the role of father, and can't rid yourself of your responsibilities towards the child who had considered you the only father she had ever know.

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N.Y. High Court Says Mistaken Avowal of Fatherhood Imposes an 'Equitable Paternity'
New York Law Journal

He who acts like a father, is a father -- at least legally -- the New York Court of Appeals said in imposing "equitable paternity" on a man who wrongly assumed he had fathered a girl and acted accordingly. The man had argued that the order to pay child support on behalf of a child he did not father effectively saddled him with an involuntary adoption, in violation of the Constitution and contrary to public policy. But the court focused not on whether he got a raw deal but on the best interests of the child.

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More from the article:

Mark did not dispute his paternity. Instead, he helped pay for Shondel's pregnancy, visited the girl he thought was his and made her a beneficiary of his life insurance. He also signed a letter affirming his fatherhood so the child could obtain immigration papers. In 1999, he married another woman, and they have children.

The next year, Shondel moved to New York and lodged a paternity petition in Brooklyn, and Mark filed a separate visitation petition. A court-ordered DNA test proved that Mark was not the father.

At that point, Mark attempted to sever ties with the girl. But he was equitably estopped from disclaiming paternity and ordered to pay child support. The child support amounted to $78 weekly, plus retroactive support of $12,859. Mark has had no personal contact with the child since March 2000.

On appeal, Mark argued that the imposition of "equitable paternity" effectively saddled him with an involuntary adoption, in violation of the Constitution and contrary to public policy.

But the 2nd Department, and now the Court of Appeals, focused not on whether Mark got a raw deal, but on the best interests of the child.

"In allowing a court to declare paternity irrespective of biological fatherhood, the Legislature made a deliberate policy choice that speaks directly to the case before us," Judge Albert M. Rosenblatt wrote for the 5-2 majority. "The potential damage to a child's psyche caused by suddenly ending established parental support need only be stated to be appreciated. Cutting off that support, whether emotional or financial, may leave the child in a worse position than if that support had never been given."

Like the lower courts, the Court of Appeals found that Mark had in every way held himself out to be the child's father -- buying her Christmas and birthday presents, referring to himself as "daddy," introducing her to his family, and regularly communicating with her. Mark had claimed he had rarely seen or had contact with the child, but none of the courts hearing his case believed him.

"The issue does not involve the equities between the two adults; the case turns exclusively on the best interests of the child," Judge Rosenblatt wrote. "The Legislature did not create an exception for men who take on the role of fatherhood based on the mother's misrepresentation ... [T]he mother's motivation and honesty are irrelevant; the only issue for the court is how the interests of the child are best served."

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The child's welfare is most important, not dad's rights. New York made the right decision in this case. Dad had already established himself by his actions as his daughter's father, even though he was not her biological father. Fatherhood is more than DNA. New York agreed with that, and ruled accordingly.


Posted on July 11, 2006 at 04:57 PM | Permalink

Comments

Yep and so it should be. Regardless if the Father is the true Father or not they should make a promise to the child to care for them. For ever.

I had 11 abortions before I realised I was being oppressed and my choices were being undermined.

Posted by: Debbie at Jul 11, 2006 5:13:12 PM

Yes, the key is the best interests of the child. He had established himself as that child's father. That trumps DNA.

11 abortions? Didn't you use birth control?

Posted by: The Countess at Jul 11, 2006 5:25:04 PM

"Yes, the key is the best interests of the child. He had established himself as that child's father. That trumps DNA."


Exactly, choices. DNA has nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Viv at Jul 11, 2006 5:35:31 PM

Interesting how he wanted visitation until he realized the child wasn't biologically his, and just like that, was able to switch off his emotions. Here's hoping he doesn't have any bio kids; if his love for his child is so fleeting, then he really shouldn't have any at all. He sounds rather empty. If I had already developed a relationship with a child and thought of the child as mine, I couldn't just turn my feelings for the kid off like that.

Posted by: Sheelzebub at Jul 12, 2006 10:26:22 AM

I believe Debbie is using satire.

Posted by: Roxanne at Jul 12, 2006 10:55:35 AM

I disagree completely. I have two boys whom I love dearly, and have not had a DNA test to prove they are mine. I assume that the woman I love has been faithful to me as I have been to her. If I suspected they were not mine, had a DNA test which came back showing I was not the father, why should I have to pay for that until the boys are adults?

Would I put them out of my life? No, but I cannot be expected to be financially responsible for them. If the roles were reversed I would not expect the same from my wife, should we split and the children were mine, I would not ask for child support (and she brings in most of the income now).

My two cents,

Cre

Posted by: Cre at Jul 14, 2006 4:09:28 AM

The thing that I find strange is that the decision essentially declares male gullibility to be the *sole* metric for determining parental liability in these situations. That sort of standard strikes me as odd.

I know, I know, "best interests of the child" is the official rationale, but that claim simply doesn't appear to hold water in the face of the fact that had Mark been "smart" enough to challenge the mother at the very beginning, she and the child both would be rotting in Guyana right now, getting precisely jack. It seems to be a glaring contradiction, and the logical contortions the court undertakes to reconcile it with the decision are... kinda weird.

I mean, you really want me to buy into the notion that if Mark were allowed to withdraw support, the poor kid would have been better off if he had never gotten her (and mom) into the United States?

So, I'm curious. Since our host seems to agree wholeheartedly with the decision, I'd like to ask if she approves of what would have happened if Mark had denied his paternity from the get-go, and if so, how she reconciles it with the outcome of this case.

I've got a few theories on how such a reconcilliation could be made without sounding like a total lunatic, but I'd like to hear the Countess's take just the same, since she brought it up

Thanks,

Chris

Posted by: Chris at Jul 14, 2006 4:14:42 AM

Sometime back in Australia a man successfully sued his ex-wife for the child support he paid for the kid that was proven not to be his. From what I can remember of the case, the guy still acts as a father to the kid and still supports the kid. The court case was his way of getting back at his ex-wife.

Posted by: shaker at Jul 14, 2006 6:21:46 AM

This is a clear case of the state involving itself where it shouldn't. If you agree with this decision, then why not force women to carry to term all viable fetuses?

Either way you are acting in "the best interests of the child" I think you'll agree with me that abortion is not in the best interests of the child...

So which is it?

Posted by: Fred Contreras at Jul 14, 2006 8:36:59 AM

I'm going to disagree, in part, with the court in this matter. I beleive the default position should be that it is always in the child's best interest to establish proper true paternity. Given what we know about genetic diseases, to fail to provide a child with half the genetic code that will heavily influence their future health is unfair to the child. A history of strokes is prevelant on my father's side of my family. And, because he modified his behavior, my father survived his stroke at 60, while his brother and sister did not. As for the child support, until the proper paternity is established, unlikely in this case given that the father is still in Guyana, I agree it is in the child's best interest for the adoptive father to continue his support.

Posted by: ryogam at Jul 14, 2006 8:42:48 AM

Fred, you're trying to start a flame war, it seems. Trolling. Of course the state has an interest in making sure that all children in its juridiction are properly cared for and free from abuse and neglect. But no state in the union is going to force a father against his will to provide his child with the use of one of his kidneys or his bone marrow or even his blood, even if it is in the child's best interest. We're talking money, not biological support. A pregnant women is forced to provide biological support to the fetus, which puts her health and life at risk every time.

Besides which, if I understand the Christian religious viewpoint correctly, an aborted fetus goes straight to heaven, and what can be more in the best interest of the child than to get to spend eternity in paradise?

Posted by: Ryogam at Jul 14, 2006 8:57:15 AM

Yeah, cre, because what matters is what you want, not what's best for the kid.

Sheelzebub, I noticed that, too. It's the power of the sperm. Not their sperm, they don't give a shit.

Posted by: ginmar at Jul 14, 2006 2:01:56 PM

Cre, if you were an unmarried dad and a woman came to you saying that her baby was yours, your statement that you would first get a DNA test would be sound. That's what any man in such a position should do. You get the DNA test before you take on the role of father. If the DNA test proves that you aren't the father, and you had acted immediately at the birth, then you shouldn't have to pay child support. However, when a man acts as a child's father for many years, as this man had done, then he should be required to pay child support even if a DNA test proves he was not the father. He acted in the capacity of father, regardless of DNA. Fatherhood is about more than DNA. It was his responsibility from the get-go to get that DNA test done the moment the baby was born. If he had, he probably would not have been ordered to pay child support. He didn't do that. Instead, took on the role of father. He bought "Christmas and birthday presents, referring to himself as "daddy," introducing her to his family, and regularly communicating with her." The court takes all of that into consideration. That's why the ruling in this case was in the best interests of the child. His daughter considers him her father, and that is important.

Posted by: The Countess at Jul 14, 2006 2:13:28 PM

Ever notice that these "paternity fraud" cases are always about a guy who doesn't want to pay child support, Ginmar? (Yeah, I'm sure you've noticed.) It's always about money. These guys take on the role of father for many years, never questioning paternity even when they are told repeatedly that they should get DNA tests - until the breakup or when mom wants to move away. Then, they demand a paternity test because they don't want to part with their money. They get mad when they are ordered to pay. They have established themselves as the child's father, and that doesn't matter. They just don't want to part with their money. They say, sure, the kid can stop by and visit, but don't expect them to pay for them. What kind of message does that give children? They aren't worth crap, that's the message it sends.

Posted by: The Countess at Jul 14, 2006 2:16:57 PM

"Ever notice that these "paternity fraud" cases are always about a guy who doesn't want to pay child support, Ginmar? (Yeah, I'm sure you've noticed.) It's always about money."

You know, I was afraid of this. With all due respect, your flippant self-righteousness is a touch irritating. Do you really think that this Sheldon woman and the courts are interested in Mark for some reason *other* than money? Ferchrisakes, he hasn't had any contact with the kid for six years.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's *always* about money. It's why women (or men in the rare cases that the father wins custody) demand child support from estranged partners, etc., often while simultaneously attempting to prevent the same from ever having any contact with the kid(s). It's why said partners fight them tooth and nail at every step. It's why people demand pre-nups and respond to all manner of slights with huge lawsuits.

This Mark guy's love for the kid in question was apparently contingent upon biological relation. That sucks. But there isn't a damned thing that you or I or the courts can do to make him be a real father to that girl. Screaming cute slogans like "Fatherhood is more than DNA" at the uncaring sky isn't going to make him love her. All it can do is potentially convince someone with authority to force him to pay for her anyway.

Money is the only kind of support for the poor girl that anyone can forcibly extract from our good friend Mark, and if he for some reason couldn't provide it, everyone involved would have completely forgotten that he exists a long, long time ago. And he knows it. And you know it. And I know it. And the girl's mother knows it. And yes, the New York Supreme Court knows it too. So yeah, of course it's about money. It's about the money for everyone involved, even the kid. It's not, after all, like she has a chance in hell of getting anything else. That message you spoke of is going to get sent no matter what.

Ultimately, this isn't actually about Fatherhood, self-righteous smokescreens aside. Fatherhood isn't a role that can be foisted upon a person by a court, at least not in any sense that would be psychologically meaningful to a child. It's about putting someone on the hook to pay, becase all those other people who also aren't the girl's biological parents either sure as hell aren't volunteering.

Sorry, but smugness about stuff like this really sets me off. Really though, no offense intended,

Chris

Posted by: Chris at Jul 14, 2006 3:26:21 PM

[I]f you were an unmarried dad and a woman came to you saying that her baby was yours, your statement that you would first get a DNA test would be sound.

It was his responsibility from the get-go to get that DNA test done the moment the baby was born.

What if you're married ?
Should every guy get a DNA test done on every child, regardless of what their relationship with the mother is ?

Do we really want a society in which the default assumption is that women might be lying about who the fathers of their children are ?

If a married couple has children, and the mother has reason to believe that one or more of the children are not the husband's, then it should be considered a fraud for her not to let him know, so that testing can be done at birth.
While of course most women would not tell their husbands any such thing, it would provide a basis for denying child support in the event of divorce, and the real biological father could be tracked down and dunned.

Posted by: Michael Herdegen at Jul 14, 2006 6:00:06 PM

Yeah, Chris, the guy hasn't had any contact with the kid because he threw a shit fit at not getting his way. Sorry to bust your bubble, but he's an asshole for abandoning the kid and that's that.

Posted by: ginmar at Jul 14, 2006 7:18:21 PM

Do we really want a society in which the default assumption is that women might be lying about who the fathers of their children are ?

Do we really want a society in which it's OK for kids to be dropped by the only fathers they've ever known?

While of course most women would not tell their husbands any such thing, it would provide a basis for denying child support in the event of divorce, and the real biological father could be tracked down and dunned.

I'd rather bring back alienation of affection lawsuits and let people go around suing their spouses' paramours to their hearts' content, if you want someone dunned, than have to explain to a child why his or her father is no longer willing to provide support. At least let the adults do their wrangling in a way that does the least possible dumping on the child.

Posted by: Lynn Gazis-Sax at Jul 15, 2006 12:35:21 AM

Yeah, Chris, the guy hasn't had any contact with the kid because he threw a shit fit at not getting his way. Sorry to bust your bubble, but he's an asshole for abandoning the kid and that's that.

Ok, fine. He's a jerk. I'm greatly relived to hear that he's been properly labled. But so what? The point is that regardless of *why* he severed contact with the kid, he was allowed to do so without much fuss, but when he tried to withold the money, all of a sudden we've got the New York Supreme Court handing out rulings written in high-minded tones about the "best interests of the child," which sort of torpedoes the notion that money isn't the prime motivating factor for everyone involved here, doesn't it?

If we're going to operate on the premise that writing a check every week is the very definition of being unable to "rid yourself of your responsibilities towards the child who had considered you the only father she had ever known," that's fine, but it's also pretty pathetic.

Again, this mess wasn't about preventing the guy from relinquishing his role as a father. He did that six years ago without even being challenged. It's about preventing him from relinquishing his role as a financier, because nobody else, probably including you, would part with $12,000 to save the kid's life, much less pay for her school supplies.

This decision isn't some great moral victory, people. It's, as far as this little girl is concerned, triage after an utter rout. Stop being so smug.

Chris

Posted by: Chris at Jul 15, 2006 1:12:47 AM

So far I dont see anything that says she didnt try to get him to see the kid. You cant enforce visitation...ie you cant MAKE him see her. Whats she gonna do, drop the kid off on his doorstep and drive away? Risk taking her to see him and having him say something horrible in front of the kid? Fact is, you DONT know how the mother felt about him severing all contact.
You're just assuming because there wasn't a legal battle to try and make him come pick her up on his determined days that it was just peachy with her.

Posted by: pheeno at Jul 15, 2006 10:42:47 AM

Hi Countess! You still the best site on the net for these discussions. I have continued my work toward gender equality for both moms and dads to learn to share our children equally and have posted the following as it it so important to try to share when ever possible:

In the last 10 years 300,000 parents have taken their lives and that of their own children due to the current system in place. Are we so heartless to allow it to continue without speaking out to see a more positive change in helping families and children not be hurt by a system that just doesn't CARE anymore...?

"ONLY when we truly start to help one another - we will in the end - ultimately - help ourselves." SRene

Have We Shared OUR LOVE for The Truth with Others Today?
Have We SAVED a Life - Today?

Stephen Rene
NPorg: http://www.ParentsWhoCare.us
Bus: http://www.eBusinessProfessionals.us
Bio: http://ebusinesspros.expage.com
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According to Karen DeCrow, former president of the National Organization for Women:

"If there is a divorce in the family, I urge a presumption of joint custody of the children. Shared parenting is not only fair to men and children, it is the best option for women. After observing women's rights and responsibilities for more than a quarter of a century of feminist activism, I conclude that shared parenting is great for women, giving time and opportunity for female parents to pursue education, training, jobs, careers, profession and leisure. There is nothing scientific, logical or rational in excluding men or forever holding women and children as if in swaddling clothes in an eternally loving bondage. Most of us have acknowledged that women can do everything that men can do. It is time now for us to acknowledge that men can do everything women can do [in parenting of our children - equally]."
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Can We N.O.W. together start to Help those LESS fortunate than ourselves - together - side by side - hand in hand...?

CAN We Try Please Always Remember: "ALL WE NEED IS LOVE?"
"It is in ALL of US - If We will only try to share it with others (even the other parent) everyday!"

Thank You Countess - You ARE Great!

Posted by: Stephen Rene at Jul 15, 2006 11:40:56 AM

Countess, what the hell?

Posted by: ginmar at Jul 15, 2006 11:53:11 AM

Stephen, welcome back, but your comment has nothing to do with my post.

When you say this:

"In the last 10 years 300,000 parents have taken their lives and that of their own children due to the current system in place."

Are you blaming "the system" for people who commit suicide and murder their children? That's not a good thing to do. Most people who go through divorce don't kill themselves or their children. There are many more things going on in those kinds of cases. Just look at the Darren Mack and Nicholas Bartha cases. Those two men were not driven by "the system" to, in Mack's case, stab his wife to death and shoot a judge, and, in the Bartha case, blow up his own house with him in it. There were many other serious "problems" these men had. Divorce and court did not cause them to do what they did. I really wish father's rights activists would stop blaming "the system" when things like that happen.

Posted by: The Countess at Jul 15, 2006 11:59:52 AM

Ginmar, Stephen Rene is a fathers' rights activist who likes my blog. He hasn't been here in awhile. I rarely agree with him, but I don't mind him commenting here.

Posted by: The Countess at Jul 15, 2006 12:01:06 PM

You're just assuming because there wasn't a legal battle to try and make him come pick her up on his determined days that it was just peachy with her.

That would be a fair point, except that it isn't what I'm getting at. The court's decision was appropriate and I have no complaints. It was the best that the system could do under the circumstances.

Here's what bugs me: The "best that the system can do" in this case is to toss a trifling monetary platitude into the wake of the horrific personal tragedy of a child. That isn't a fix. It's certainly not justice. It's just a weak, sad acknowledgement of the fact that some injustices aren't actually fixable.

Which is fine, the world isn't perfect. And so the decision should be supported, but with a certain degree of solemnity that recognizes it for what it is: a mere gesture; an ultimately ineffectual non-solution that will do absolutely nothing to fix this girl's now royally screwed up life because money can't replace what it is that she's *truly* lost as a result of this mess.

But all that I see when I read positive commentary about this case (not just here) is an orgy of smug congratulation. Something was done. A wrong was righted. Justice prevailed. A message has been sent to the deadbeats that they can't just "rid [themselves] of [their] responsibilities toward the child[ren] who had considered [them] the only father[s] [they] had ever know[n]." The celebrations are crude. They're vulgar. And worst of all, they're based on lies.

"Something" was done, yes. But no wrong was righted, no justice prevailed, and no message got sent that will actually register with the intended audience. A child was abandoned by the only father that she'd ever known and, as a consolation (or a pragmatism, depending on your point of view) her mother has been awarded $12,000 in "back-pay" and $78.00 a week for the next six or seven years. That is the sole outcome of this case. There is nothing else.

As someone who's spent a fair amount of time working as a volunteer with the outcomes of cases like this, I can tell you that this girl's story will probably not have a happy ending. And I can guarantee all of you that to her, your high-minded armchair moralizing about the "true" nature of fatherhood and the clever ad-hominems you concoct to sling at her own "father" are either empty, platitudinous slogans or, perversely, just more injuries that she has to bear.

So, for the last time: Stop being so smug.

Posted by: Chris at Jul 15, 2006 10:57:46 PM

Because you cannot FORCE a parent to out forth the loving effort it takes to be a parent. The best you can do is ensure the child still benefits from the financial support of two parents. Which is something many FRA's resent. They see it (much as you did) as giving the MOTHER money, when truthfully, its what you owe THE CHILD.

It's the only responsibility that *can* be enforced.

It's the one many want to shrug off.

Posted by: pheeno at Jul 16, 2006 2:05:59 PM

I've been thinking about this story for a few days and I cannot help but feel extremely sympathetic for this man. The outcome of this case is just tragic. If justice were done the child's real father should pay support. I don't think this innocent man should be bourne with any obligation for this. I really have to agree with what Chris and Micheal have said so far.

Posted by: Promethus at Jul 16, 2006 4:14:57 PM

I've been thinking about this story for a few days and I cannot help but feel extremely sympathetic for this man. The outcome of this case is just tragic. If justice were done the child's real father should pay support. I don't think this innocent man should be bourne with any obligation for this. I really have to agree with what Chris and Micheal have said so far.

Posted by: Prometheus at Jul 16, 2006 4:15:10 PM

If justice were done, the man would act like the father he was more than willing to claim himself as.

Posted by: pheeno at Jul 16, 2006 7:43:52 PM

I'd like to suggest that the New York case is just one case out of thousands. It seems to me that each is unique and specific. There's a poor clod here in Texas that was named (and notified) as the biological father AFTER his day in court had passed. So, here's this poor schmuck that gets tagged by the State of Teaxs, and friend, you really don't mess with Texas, has his wages garnished, and spends time in jail for failure to pay support- all while everybody in the case knew that he wasn't the father (based on DNA). His meager defense was, "how can I continue to knowingly participate in fraud, when that in and of itself is a crime"? I guess I'd like to let the merits of each case be weighed and legal decisions be rendered based on the specifics, and not some intangible generality.

Posted by: Tex at Jul 18, 2006 12:03:37 AM

Gee, maybe men should be more responsible when they fuck, huh? Nah.

Posted by: ginmar at Jul 18, 2006 10:19:21 AM

Mhhmm...lemme tell you something else about the wondeful state of texas.

You can be 30 grand behind in child support and never see a day in jail. Every 6 months or so I end up sitting in a court room with about 200 other women, and we're all there for the same reason. For some of them 30 grand is a SMALL amount they're owed. Every single one of them has to take off work, find child care (you're not supposed to bring the kids) and sit around for at least 4 hours, just to have a court appointed attorney bump the child support payments 20 bucks, (so it will pay the interest...which we dont see either) and oddly enough, none of the guys that far behind have gone to jail yet.

So right now there's 200 women NOT getting child support, and none of the fathers going to jail. Yet 1 guy getting screwed is the problem.


See anything out of balance with that at all?

Posted by: pheeno at Jul 18, 2006 12:06:05 PM

I think that in the interest of the child...you may keep the support...but in the interest of accountability, the fraudulant mother should still be able to get sued in a separate civil case. That child should likewise be able to sue the mother for the mental and emotional harm that has befallen him or her

Posted by: JAY at Jul 19, 2006 9:45:03 PM

prove she knew beforehand. Unless she had a paternity test done in secret, she cant know anymore than he does he isnt the father.

Posted by: pheeno at Jul 19, 2006 9:51:38 PM

The interesting thing in all of this talk about the best interest of the kid...is that it tends to make less of the fact of a mother unwilling to identify the real padre...unless she was that loose that she doesn't know. This "best interests of the child" is cliche. If the person who opened their legs cannot remember or does not want to remember everyone who came a calling and decided to stick with the person who has the means...the woman should be prosecuted. That type of action destroyes the lives of all but the child bearer...and the courts stance supports it so that the tax payers do not have to. Only the "suckers" who tried to do the right thing have to support it.

Posted by: Jay at Jul 19, 2006 9:55:45 PM

prove she knew beforehand. Unless she had a paternity test done in secret, she cant know anymore than he does he isnt the father<<

I guess you missed this part of the article

"The dissenters objected to the application of estoppel against a "completely innocent litigant" who was misled by the child's mother. They noted that the woman swore in Family Court that she had not had sexual relations during the relevant time span with anyone other than Mark, an assertion that DNA analysis proved was a lie"

Posted by: beste at Jul 19, 2006 10:03:59 PM

prove she knew beforehand. Unless she had a paternity test done in secret, she cant know anymore than he does he isnt the father.


Well, after it is proven that "one" person "isn't" the father, and the mother does not fess up with details of whomever else she slept with (unless there were simply too many to tabulate), then "she" should be liable for something at that point. She may not know the person anymore...but if she can't recall "anything", then something "should" compel her to. I am sure if she knew the "real" father to be a rich and powerful figure, "she'd" be the one who pushed the other sap out of the way for the real money maker

Posted by: Jay at Jul 19, 2006 10:10:53 PM

"I guess you missed this part of the article"

And I guess you missed where the post i responded to was alot more general than just this one case.

oops.

Or all the lovely shit like " loose" and "opened their legs".
Without ever mentioning how not being a loose man and keeping dicks in pants would prevent this from ever even being an issue.

I wonder what penalty he should face for taking up the courts time because he's fucking women he isnt married to and opens up the issue to begin with? Hmm.

Posted by: pheeno at Jul 19, 2006 11:31:10 PM

I'm not surprised that a vile skank whore like Trish Wilson and her idiotic sycophant Ginmar support stealing money from men to pay for the offspring of their adulterous relationships. Trish Wilson didn't seem to care about the 'best interests of the child' when she ripped her son out of her father's life. I wonder just how fucked up that kid is? Also, Trish, like the slut that she is, has been reduced to begging on her stupid blog for people to support her fat ass. Don't do it. Shit on Trish Wilson. Piss on Trish Wilson. Spit on Trish Wilson.

Posted by: Marko at Jul 20, 2006 2:46:11 AM

Oh look, an idiot who thinks he matters.

I always know how small a guys dick really is by the use of whore and slut. His must be microscopic.

Posted by: pheeno at Jul 20, 2006 4:57:14 AM

Hey I hate trish wilson as much as the next MRA.... But in her defense I will say....

I am sure her son turned out perfectly ok. I am also sure that Trish always took good care of her son.

She has good taste in Movies, TV Series and Videogames.

The Count is problaby a good father figure to her son

She likess cooking

Posted by: beste at Jul 20, 2006 5:07:11 AM

And she has given some support to idea of legalising 'Choice for Men'.

Posted by: Beste at Jul 20, 2006 5:32:03 AM

Wow, I think Marko has a crush on me. ;)

Posted by: The Countess at Jul 20, 2006 9:15:47 AM

Beste, thanks for the kind words. I know that lots of people would not agree with me, but I try to be fair. I know that I've done well by my son. He's about to enter college. He turned out just fine.

I don't agree with the platform for Choice 4 Men. What I believe is that men who are unmarried and have never been in the child's or mother's life should not be ordered to pay child support when the state tracks them down when mom needs public assistance. Moms today can't get public assistance unless they name the father, even if mom had never had contact with him. I think states need to find other ways to replenish their welfare coffers than getting child support from unmarried men who have never been involved with the mother and child. If mom doesn't want his input, the state should respect that. Likewise, with no child support comes no rights. On the other hand, I don't think that unmarried fathers should automatically get rights to children they've sired, simply because they are the biological father. Fatherhood is about more than DNA. Impregnating a woman doesn't give a man a right to rule over how she lives her life, down to questioning her childrearing decisions and demanding to have a right to determine where she lives. I also don't believe that unmarried women should seek child support yet at the same time demand that the biological father have no presence in her life and her child's life. I think she's better off foregoing the child support, because the state will ensure that he has access to her child. Welfare reform has made a mess of child support and custody.

Posted by: The Countess at Jul 20, 2006 9:24:08 AM

It seems to me that there's an important distinction being missed here. That is, the man's fighting "child support" or money mandated by the court to be paid to the child's mother under threat of law and jail. You can't tell from the article really if the guy's trying wash his hands of any responsibility practical or financial from the child. I mean, all he's saying is don't give me a court order when I'm the victim of fraud.

It's easy to jump to the conclusion that he's a cold hearted bastard or that it's all about the money, but it's more about a court order and maintaining reaosnable amount of control over one's life first.

Personally, I think there's a big difference between saying "I will not pay for this child" and "I will not abide a court order."

Posted by: Dirk at Jul 20, 2006 11:42:29 AM

I was watching court tv once, and heard about a case where a woman was found murdered. Turned out it was the killer's ex-girlfriend. She didn't want to have anything to do with him, and he was happy with that, as he had been fooling around on his wife. She worked long hours and avoided any social services. But she wanted to go to college, see. So the financial aid people made her reveal the father of her child for financial aid. This isn't right. She probably knew he had a few screws lose, and wanted to avoid him. But she had this crazy, optimistic idea about getting an education and improving the life of her and her child. So she was murdered by the ex-hole.

Posted by: silverside at Jul 20, 2006 1:33:51 PM

If you put aside the "natural" empathy you have to feel for a child, only the "mother" knows how many times and how many men she opened her legs for. It seems like there is a "vendetta" against the good guys who "want" to do the right thing...while the ones who didnt don't even get pursued. Meanhwile, the mother "knows" who all she spread her legs for. Playing "pussy bingo" until she can associate fees and expenses to the person who is likely to pay.

Posted by: Jay at Jul 20, 2006 5:26:35 PM

Maybe the "good" guys should be keeping their dicks in their pants. Might difficult to "trap" a man who has more control than a dog humping anything available, wouldnt you say? I realize that might mean guys will have to be responsible for once and stop dropping their pants every chance they get, but as FRA's and MRA's keep claiming, men are better than dogs, so I'm sure we'll see an overwhelming drop in the numbers of men paying child support for someone elses kids just by keeping their dick zipped up. Right?

After all, she cant very well play " pussy bingo" all by herself can she? Since we're talking about responsibilities here, ya know. And if you're going to essentially adopt a child, the child doesnt give a flying rats ass if you dont feel like playing daddy anymore. Little harder to justify it when you actually address the one owed, isnt it?

Posted by: pheeno at Jul 20, 2006 6:19:04 PM

Your logic sounds wacked. It sounds like "If I can't make the person who is supposed to pay pay, I'll make someone else accountable." The logic makes no sense. Plus, you must not care about the child. Perhaps if women could be forced into a relationship with a child that isnt their own, you might change your tune. If you go over to a mans house a few times, make a few meals for him and his kid, maybe you should be responsible to support his kid from that point forward.

Best interests of the child. What the hell does that mean to you? You were a kid once, I hope. Would you have wanted your mommy to drop your real daddy and stick it to someone who could supplement her life better? How do you think that man would look at you? Would you want to be that kid?

Posted by: Jay at Jul 20, 2006 11:35:21 PM

Trish-

Given that you feel NY acted correctly in this case, what do you see as the implications for, say, stepfathers or longterm live-in boyfriends?

By that I mean, if a man lives with the child's mother over the course of several years and acts very similarly in a parental role (though always understanding that there's no biological connection), should that man now be ordered by the court to pay child support?

That situation, to me, seems to stand the same test as the one in the article. If acting as a parent obligates a man to court order, then in countless stepparent cases it should hold as well, right?

So if your son was younger and you and the Count divorced (heaven forbid!) he should have to pay you some child support since he acted as a father figure.

Posted by: Dirk at Jul 21, 2006 10:18:08 AM

Dirk, children in those cases already have fathers. Those fathers are likely paying child support. There have been cases where live-in boyfriends and stepfathers have paid child support. That's when they act in loco parentis, which is much more involved than acting as a father figure. Most live-in boyfriends and stepfathers don't take that role because there is already a father in the picture. Their situations are not the same as what is described in the article.

My son already has a father who paid child support. There's no reason for The Count to pay child support because my son already has a father. My son knows who his father is. He doesn't confuse The Count with his father. The man in the article had taken on the father role, even down to saying that the child was his. He didn't bother to contest paternity until later. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Posted by: The Countess at Jul 21, 2006 10:34:25 AM

Oh I'm not comparing, I'm asking for your opinion on a hypothetical.

The illusion to me is that everyone has a father. Just because no one has decided to locate the biological one in this case doesn't change that fact.

Posted by: Dirk at Jul 21, 2006 10:58:19 AM

God, Jay, could you be more of an asshole? I mean, does it come naturally, or what?

Posted by: ginmar at Jul 21, 2006 11:08:40 AM

Jay, Im merely applying your standards to men as well.

Funny thats your reaction. Well, actually it's not. It's typical.

Posted by: pheeno at Jul 21, 2006 1:00:32 PM

Is Our US Government Engaging in a Social Experiment?
Q: Isn't Being a Good Parent a "Constitutional Right to Freedom and the Pursuit of Happiness?"

A: Congress is setting aside up to $100 million a year to promote marriage and $50 million a year to produce committed fathers!

“When they watch mom and dad ... resolving their conflicts and having a normal relationship, they’ll be better able to carry that on in their relationship when they start dating and get married,” he said.

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ISN'T IT NOW TIME our Children finally See and Hear the TRUTH from their Parents - about LOVE and RESPECT - not Hate - for One Another - and possibly be what has been missing from so many Domestic, International and Global relationships over the last 100 years?

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Keeping the FAITH - always,

Steve Rene
www.ParentsWhoCare.us - Family Law Reform
www.EBusinessProfessionals.us - HealthCare Reform
www.myOLAauction.us - E-commerce Reform
You Can Earn Even More Online Today w/OLA NOW #2 to eBaY!
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Posted by: Stephen Rene at Jul 23, 2006 11:03:31 PM

This should be a wake up call to all men, have every kid and women claims is yours DNA tested so you don't have to support the biproduct of someone elses good time without protection. I feel that if a guy can prove that his wife or girlfriend was having an afair or sleeping with another man around the time she got pregnant that even if it is months later or years even he should be able to up and walk away. How wrong is it to force someone to love and care for a baby that he was tricked into excepting. I will learn from this guy, if any women claims she is having my child I have to assume for my own sake as a man with very little rights in these cases that it may not be. DNA testing should be required at birth for every child, so kids can have there real dads and non-biological fathers don't end up paying for the rest of their lives for a child they never intended to have.

Posted by: Bochaba at Jul 30, 2006 6:07:30 PM

or

forgo the opportunity to go bareback and put on a condom.

Yes yes, I know its something actually required of YOU and that must be traumatic, but suck it up buttercup and wear protection.

Posted by: pheeno at Jul 31, 2006 12:04:29 AM