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March 26, 2005
Are Men Driven To Suicide When They Don't Get Custody Of Their Children?
Apparently, the claim that men commit suicide when they don't get custody of their children is as popular Down Under as it is in the U. S. The Australian government has heard from fathers' rights activists about this claim, and they are believing it. There has been much talk in government circles about these poor men and fathers who are supposedly committing suicide in droves over the "injustice" of being denied involvement with their children. Women's groups are trying to counter these misrepresentations.
One should take a look at men who commit suicide when they don't get custody of their children. Suicides don't happen in a vacuum. These men were likely to have already had problems during the marriage, such as mental problems and alcohol and drug abuse. While any suicide is tragic, it is unlikely to have been caused by the court system alone. That's just a way for fathers' rights activists to use these suicides for political purposes. These marriages don't end because a selfish woman wants to keep the children to herself.
I also ask, are fathers who murder their ex-wifes, ex-girlfriends, and children also driven to murder over "injustices" in the system? The article Fathers' Rights Groups Decry Court Process: Despair of Divorce and Loss of Kids Compounded, Advocates Contend blames murdering and assaulting dads behavior on the court system.
One divorced father commits suicide on the steps of San Diego's courthouse.
Another sets his car afire at Alaska's child-support office.
Others, in an all-too-common scenario, kill their ex-wives, their children, then themselves.
Men who snap in such violent ways have few defenders. Yet fathers' rights groups, joined by a few academic experts, see a common denominator in the recent bursts of rage, and ask whether the U.S. family court system could be partly at fault by deepening the despair of divorced men.
"None of these guys are poster children," said Lowell Jaks, president of the Alliance for Non-Custodial Parents Rights. "But when you cause this much pain to so many men, there are going to be repercussions. A certain percentage are going to crack."
Please note that Lowell Jaks has just been released from prison for kidnapping his son. His ex-wife has sole custody and he has no contact. Please read this link on my blog to read everything you've ever wanted to know about the Lowell Jaks kidnapping case. Fathers' rights activists blame "the system" for him kidnapping his son. Don't these groups ask these men to take responsibility for their own behavior when they murder, kidnap, and otherwise harass?
It is beyond reprehensible that fathers' rights activists use male suicide as "proof" that the court system is biased against men. Family court does not drive men to suicide. There were probably already serious problems in the relationship before the family ended up in court. It's also notable that they don't mention cases where men kill their families, yet they blame those murders on the court system as well.
Posted on March 26, 2005 at 08:27 AM | Permalink
Comments
"His ex-wife has sole custody and he has no contact."
Is that a definite however...I believe most of the time they have no 'ordinary' contact but can get like an hourly visit in one of these visitation centers...they are based on an hourly rate of from like 10. p/h to $150 p/h like Bridget Marks had to pay...
So he might not have his regular visitation but I bet he has one of those hourly visit in one of those centers...it is rare when they forbid any father from a visit in one of those places...they just have to pay by the hour for it...and it's supervised...
Posted by: NYMOM at Mar 26, 2005 12:28:09 PM
These men didn't commit suicide because they were denied custody or access to their children.
They killed themselves for the same reason they lost custody or couldn't see their kids: they were sick to begin with.
Posted by: kohoutekdriver8 at Mar 26, 2005 12:34:37 PM
Amen. You see this same behavior surface whenever these individuals are "stressed" -- whether it's a layoff or what have you. And there are now ample examples of men who had pretty much equal joint custody or even sole custody who still "lose it" and kill the kids. Too often this type is looking for a ready excuse or object to blame for their criminal behavior, and I for one shall not hand it to them. Remember that guy from Massachusetts, who apparently buried the kids somewhere along I-80 (or something like that) but couldn't remember where? He had over 50% of the time as I recall.
Posted by: at Mar 27, 2005 1:42:19 AM
I think you're right, you need to place each case in perspective, and that perspective should include the state of mind of that father, but also include how the system in general tacitly accepts the woman's testimony without the least fact-checking, often levies payments that are absurd (for a factual example, out of $36k gross, being ordered to pay $24k) -- justly or not matterns not to a system that feels compelled to side with the mother (for fear of being anti-momandapplepie) and this leaves the fathers stripped of their credibility, their reputation, any chance to live anywhere but a flop house, and on TOP of that, denied or restricted any access.
One thing I will say about these stories, I started out wanting to do something/anything and following the progress of agencies like FACT.on.ca (in Canada) but couldn't go on because it was like walking in a new suit down the backstreets of Bombay. The stories, the many and non-stop stories, were just too surreal, bizarre and too unimaginably without mercy.
Oh sure, I expect there were a few posers and prime psychiatric-fodder in the bunch, but there were also more than enough of the well-documented and corrobberated histories to sicken anyone fond of democracy and justice. It's like UFOs I suppose: One fabricated story does nothing to erase the countless others that stand on good ground.
There's an expression in the English-speaking world: "There but for fortune go you or I" and when you hear of the suicides, murders, total freak-outs that scream of a desperate state of mind, rather than dismiss them as wackos, we might more constructively ask why them and not ourselves, and give our own an extra hug.
Posted by: mrG at Mar 27, 2005 7:46:14 AM
I'm sure I will be swooped upon by many a 'mental depression advocate' when I say this...
But apparently threatening suicide is a popular manipulative tactic by controlling men, to hang onto their wives/girlfirends.
I know this is a controversial statement to make, but...
I'm increasingly under the impression that in many cases, threatening suicide, and even committing suicide, is the behaviour of a person who is trying to control other people, or get other people to care for them, instead of taking responsibility for themselves and their own lives.
I have gotten almost no support in this, but I've several times in my life felt put upon, manipulated, and bullied by 'suicidal' people.
And it's a situation where you're almost always frowned upon for not sacraficing your own quality of life & happiness to pander to the depressed person.
That said, I think there ARE many people who are suicidal, or commit suicide because they're not getting something that they actually do deserve or need. Like quality of life, for example. (Say in the case of severe illness, or a situation in which they TRULY have no way out.)
So... While I see suicidal tendencies as a symptom of very real mental illness... Suicide is a choice.
Plenty of people spend years in a depressed state and don't commit suicide, after all.
And committing suicide because you don't get custody of your children? Um, hullo, what about being there when you're children are over 18, when your spouse nor the courts can prevent your children from seeing you? What about being there for the hopes that things might change? In that sense, suicide truly is "a permanent solution to a temporary problem", and therefore I have little sympathy for people who commit suicide because they lost custody of their children - even if, or especially if, the spouse who got custody is a crapola parent.
A suicide committing parent is ABANDONING their children in the most permanent way possible!
So I see parading suicide rates on this issue as rather reprehensible.
You feel the world has done you wrong because you have been denied custody and visitation??? Well, work on it! Stand up, get help for your problems, get treatment for your depression, pay your child support, and generally be a responsible, healthy person, prepared, when it becomes possible, whenever that is (2 months for now or 15 years from now), to be the parent that you ought to be!
Don't just sit there your hands singing another somebody done somebody wrong song at the table with a bottle of booze and a bottle of sleeping pills in front of you!
Get up and do something for yourself!
Posted by: Chloe at Mar 27, 2005 11:14:28 AM
Oh, Trish, on the topic of being put upon, manipulated, and bullied by 'suicidal' people...
Last month I watched the movie Visitors... And the mother character in the movie is the epitome of that.
Of course she was a gross exaggeration... But it really does demonstrate a dynamic I've witnessed repeatedly, although in more subtle ways.
Anyway, I'm not saying suicidal behaviour isn't caused by a serious mental illness - and it is just that an illness. Which should, of course, be treated as such.
But you know, Narcissist Personality Disorder, Sociopaths, and Psychopaths, are also mentally ill and need psychiatric help.
They all deserve compassion, but NOT, I think, sympathy.
After all, why should I sympathize towards someone who has no care for me & my feelings? Who would commit suicide even though it would adversely effect me and others around them?
Posted by: Chloe at Mar 27, 2005 11:27:38 AM
I haven't seen "Visitors." I had it confused with "Les Visateurs," which is a funny French film starring Jean Reno.
If you want to see a funny movie with a very manipulative female lead character, track down "Tatie Danielle." It's French. That woman was amazing. She met her match with a young woman who was hired to take care of her.
I've read details of a few of these suicide cases fathers' rights activists bring up. The guys were manipulative before they committed suicide, and they had exhibited serious psychological problems when the relationship was intact. Those psychological problems amongst other serious problems were why the relationships had failed. The divorce didn't cause their suicides.
Posted by: Trish Wilson at Mar 27, 2005 11:55:54 AM
I think a distinction needs to be made. First, you are correct in that threatening suicide or violence is a common tactic of abusers. This is borne out a basic need to control and manipulate others. On the other hand, there may very well be people who commit suicide out of deep depression and loss of meaning or purpose in their lives. These people often say little or nothing about their suffering. I think these are two different groups of people. How much true depression plays into group #1 is debatable.
That loss of custody can produce depression is totally understandable. This is probably particularly true for women, who are arguably more vulnerable (for any number of cultural or physiological reasons) to depression anyway. Also given the fact that motherhood is the only meaning and purpose that a lot of women have in their lives, even in the 21st century. This is not to say that men are immune to major depression of this type. But men are less likely to define their entire identity around their children (remember that in most cultures, women are still raised to believe that motherhood is their only goal), and are more likely to have more professional and social outlets in which to throw themselves. In addition, loss of custody tends to generate depression in mothers because they are generally made into pariahs, even by those who affirm that it is perfectly okay to strip a fit and loving mother of her children, then turn around and treat the mother like dirt who brought it on herself. If the mother lost custody to an abuser, she will also face years of ongoing abuse that she already knows the courts will dismiss and ignore. Withdrawn visitation at will, tauntings, threats, perhaps even stalkings or violence, and virtually no one will care. Sure, hope, other family, prayer can help sustain these people. But in reality, if it is an abuser intent on taking emotional prisoners and turning the child against the nc parent,there many be no magic reunion to look forward to someday. Especially if the nc parent has lost all contact with the child. And the agony of parents who have lost custody to a parent who they know is abusing the child is especially depressing. For what is depression in this situation, but anger born out of the powerless to protect or defend the ones you love.
So in a sense, I have all sympathy for parents who find themselves seriously ill from stress-related diseases or even in a sense failing to live on. NO SYMPATHY for parents who take out their kids and themselves in dramatic power displays of gunfire.
Posted by: silverside at Mar 27, 2005 12:00:50 PM
If you've never had thoughts of suicide, no amount of research or study can prepare you for where those thoughts can take you in your heart and mind.
A very interesting p[ost.
Happy Easter Trish!
Posted by: Masculiste at Mar 27, 2005 12:36:32 PM
Happy Easter, Michael!
You might get a kick out of this. My son and husband are playing World of Warcraft now, and the game is full of special Easter Eggs just for today. When they run across an Easter Egg in the game, they click on it and get little gifts like chocolate that their characters can eat to gain energy points. I love Easter Eggs in games. In case you don't know, they're usually little inside jokes that you have to know about in advance to understand. There's an Easter Egg already in the game of a rocket that had crashed into the side of a mountain. There are tracks leading to the mountain. That one is from "Buckaroo Banzai: Across The Eighth Dimension." Fans of the movie recognized it immediately.
Easter Eggs are in movies, too. There are two in Evil Dead and A Nightmare On Elm Street. Sam Raimi and Wes Craven are friends. Raimi directed Evil Dead and Craven directed Nightmare. In the basement in Evil Dead is a poster of The Hills Have Eyes. That was directed by Craven. Johnny Depp (in Nightmare) is watching Evil Dead on TV before he disappears in the bed and is killed. Those two directors made homages to each other in their films.
Posted by: Trish Wilson at Mar 27, 2005 12:46:41 PM
"On the other hand, there may very well be people who commit suicide out of deep depression and loss of meaning or purpose in their lives. These people often say little or nothing about their suffering. I think these are two different groups of people."
No doubt. I wouldn't argue with that.
However, I very recently heard someone tell a story... I don't remember the entire story, so I'll just touch the basics... A woman had left her boyfriend because he was problematic - abusive I think (if not physically, then emotionally & verbally abusive). He was miserable & depressed and told her so again & again. But she refused to give in & just take him back. He convinced her that he was cool with everything as it was - and she agreed to see him, and I think she had told him that was that, he just killed himself right in front of her.
He actually did it - he committed suicide. But you're not going to tell me that wasn't some kind of a power play - like a revenge. I mean, why do it in front of her? You know?
I've read details of a few of these suicide cases fathers' rights activists bring up. The guys were manipulative before they committed suicide, and they had exhibited serious psychological problems when the relationship was intact. Those psychological problems amongst other serious problems were why the relationships had failed. The divorce didn't cause their suicides.
Oh exactly, that's what I was thinking... That the same emotional/psychological problems that led to the divorce are the same emotional/psychological problems that led to the suicide.
In other words, his problems led to both the divorce and the suicide. NOT that the divorce caused the suicide!
I feel a great deal of compassion for people who have mental illnesses.
And I even feel sympathy for those who experience depression. I know what it's like to be blue for awhile - I can imagine how bad it must be to be depressed for months & months on end. I've been having rough times myself. That's tough. It's rough. No doubt about it.
I'd even had an illness a few years ago that was so bad, that I had started thinking if I didn't get a diagnosis, and there wasn't a cure, that suicide would've started looking like a real option. You can ask my friends, I really was depressed. I'd lost my sense of humour. I was like a different person! But I didn't give up and just say 'farewell cruel world'! I kept talking to friends & family, and they were supportive, so I kept going to doctor after doctor. I was going to exhaust every possible medical avenue! After 5 months of suffering sick & in pain, and seeing a total of around 15 different doctors, I was diagnosed. I got surgery, and 2 hours after the surgery I was out of pain, 10 days later I had my sense of humour back. I still have some problems, I have to take medication now 2 years later, but it's pretty manageable so far.
So I think I have some idea about depression & suicidal thoughts.
And I think it's usually all about "not getting one's own way".
I was getting the shaft from some medical professionals, I lost my job because of my illness... so I started thinking fatalistically because I didn't want to live that way.
But I did the right thing, I reached out to people and allowed them to help me. I continued to perservere to find medical professionals to help me. (There are actually very few medical conditions that are completely untreatable after all.)
These men who lose their wife & kids... They're not getting their way. So instead of working to better themselves, seeking help, they get depressed, and give up, and off themselves.
That's what I'm talking about.
Posted by: Chloe at Mar 28, 2005 12:43:20 PM
"...and they had exhibited serious psychological problems when the relationship was intact."
...and women exihibit serious pyschological problems on a monthly basis, never mind post-partum depression.
Everytime a major family problem arises, the whole family exihibits serious psychological problems.
Everybody has serious pyschological problems...everybody. That's what it is to be human.
Suicide, or the threat of it, is a desperate cry for help. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but it's rarely if ever malicious. I'm saying that it's a dysfunction. It's usually indicative of a more serious co-dependancy issue, considering that the one doing the 'threatening,' is trying to make the person who they're doing the threatening to, CARE...albeit, usually unsuccessfully. Is that a 'power play?' Sure it is, but no more different in it's own context, than a wife who says, "Well, if you REALLY loved me you would..." or any other innocent little domestic tactic we use on a regular basis to get the things we want from the people we love. It's not malicious, it's HUMAN nature. And before you say, "well Masculiste...a suicide threat is a far cry from 'Honey, if you REALLY loved me, you would...'" But my responce would be, "Is it?"
Suicide says the same thing..."if ANYBODY loved me at all, they wouldn't let me do this." Much like, "I NEED somebody to stop me before I do this to myself." It's a plea for love.
And this statement..."In other words, his problems led to both the divorce and the suicide. NOT that the divorce caused the suicide!"
That's not necessarily true, and it doesn't sound compassionate at all. And it certainly doesn't address the real underlying dynamics that encompass the massive problem of suicide whether it's applied to your point, or in general. I mean...the way you girls are characterizing it...well, I HAVE to ask...would you apply that very same logic to a troubled teenager of pre-teenager who threatens, attempts, or succeeds at suicide?
You should know by now that I mean no offense when I suggest...try to reach out to people who have experienced this sort of thing personally before you stoop to such 'generalizations.'
Oh Yeah and sorry I missed your last post Trish...I just "POWERED UP" my PC so I'm now looking at games. But I don't EVEN know where to begin, I'm still such a dunce about computor games and stuff...
Posted by: Masculiste at Mar 28, 2005 1:41:22 PM
"Suicide says the same thing..."if ANYBODY loved me at all, they wouldn't let me do this." Much like, "I NEED somebody to stop me before I do this to myself." It's a plea for love."
It could also be used like this as the ultimate selfish act keeping even children from going to college or marrying long after they should have been allowed to make their own way in the world...
AND kids can be made to feel 'obligated' to a weak parent too...Many Evaluators have noticed that often a kid will chose a parent to live with due to feeling responsible for that parent...like maybe they will be miserable if child leaves them too like divorcing spouse...
So it can be seen as selfish too to do this to a young person...
Posted by: NYMOM at Mar 28, 2005 5:04:12 PM
"That loss of custody can produce depression is totally understandable. This is probably particularly true for women, who are arguably more vulnerable (for any number of cultural or physiological reasons) to depression anyway."
I actually read a while back that some mental illnesses like depression appeared to be more common in women...they actually thought that the traits that we label as 'symptoms' today might have been considered normal personalities for women, at one time anyway...like that whole easily crying business, loss of appetite, emotionally instability, hysteria, fainting spells, etc.,
Even women smiling openly a lot or talking loudly might have been considered 'inappropriate' at one time and probably not likely to get you a husband...so a lot of women who married probably had what we would consider today these childlike personalities traits. They were very shy, introverted, afraid of strangers or new situations, weepy if you looked at them too much...and then passed those genes unto their children just continuing the evolution of women along those lines...
Posted by: NYMOM at Mar 28, 2005 5:24:04 PM
Thank you for your website, I needed to hear that my cousin is not alone. He was the most compassionate, person with parents of italian decent. His only fault, he never knew how to fight back, or I should say, he never wanted to fight back. A muscian, a college educated mind, and yet, he allowed a vicious souled ex-wife control and manipulate him from seeing his own flesh and blood. She is the one who had many affairs, is remarried living in the house my cousin built for his family. His heart could not bear to live in this cruel world. He chose to leave because, he was sad, not because he wanted to get even, or was selfish, just the opposite, he did not want his children to suffer anymore pain than he was receiving from his ex-wife Amimee. We will all miss you very Mark Gambone. I want you to know, you did not die in vain. Love and miss you, your loving italian family and friends.
Posted by: A cousin forever at Nov 8, 2005 3:37:07 PM
When someone is in a suicidal state of mind, they can not see beyond their own saddness and grief. In other words, they csn not get past their own feelings. Can any of you imagine what this must feel like to feel so much pain to want to take your owwn life? If someone were crying out for help, wouldn't you help them? If they say they are going to take their life, take it seriously. You might save a life. Mark Gambone was my brother, he was bi polar, and took his life. He loved his girls very much, but he just wanted the pain to end. Rest in peace, Mark. We love and miss you.In nmemories your immortal spirit remains forever. See you on the other shore.
Posted by: Joanne at May 28, 2006 12:24:31 PM
